jacquez45:

beatrice-otter:

praetor-canis:

biheather-birebecca-lezvalencia:

beatrice-otter:

#i feel like this is also the stance of the movies#because lando spends approximately zero seconds redeeming himself#think of how black characters are usually treated for betrayals#even if it is an airquote betrayal#lando helps at the end of esb and is officially one of the heroes no redemption necessary#the whole choking thing is a misunderstanding really
tags via cadesama

#also note how Leia forgave him #real fast#this is a woman who does not do forgiveness easily #but she knew he was right#she was fully aware of that #she was angry because she loves Han#but she moved past it #because she knew he was right#the movie knows he’s right #the characters know he’s right#it isn’t even a question

But if you look at it from another POV, why couldn’t Bail Organa have done the same for Alderaan? It’s not like the Death Star suddenly came out of hyperspace and attacked within a second, the battle station was in orbit for quite a while. Why didn’t Organa give himself up? Or “betray” Kenobi to save his planet and people? He could have commed the Death Star and said that he was leading Kenobi to Alderaan, and use him as a bargaining chip with Vader. He could have given up Leia for his people, telling Vader that she’s Padme’s daughter. Was he fine with using the planet and people as a shield? Knowing that it’s a core world and thus valuable enough to not be destroyed? Thoughts? @wingletblackbird @beatrice-otter

Are you looking for the Watsonian reason (the reason from internal story logic) or the Doylist reason (the reason the writer/director chose to do it that way)? Because there are reasons both ways.

First, let’s talk the Doylistic reason. And that is that A New Hope is not about Bail. He doesn’t even get mentioned. Nor does Queen Breha, his wife (who is the actual planetary ruler, btw; Bail was the Senator before Leia, and he’s still one of the leaders of the Rebel Alliance, but he’s not the planetary ruler). Having him or Queen Breha do that negotiating would have taken the movie in a different direction and added characters and complexity that would have dragged it down and changed it from a fantasy-in-space to more of a political thriller. And taken the spotlight off of Leia, Luke, and Han, the three main characters.

On a Watsonian level, there are actually a number of differences between Alderaan’s situation and Cloud City’s.

First and foremost, Alderaan matters. It’s big and powerful. People care about it. And up to this point, the Empire has mostly been going after smaller targets. The places (important) people don’t really care about. Now, Alderaan’s importance is exactly why Tarkin chose it, but Bail and Breha don’t know that. It would be far more likely, from their point of view, for this to be some sort of bluff. In which case, the smart thing to do is bluster, pretend ignorance, and hope to hold out long enough for the Rebellion to figure out the weakness and destroy the thing. If they say “oh, yeah, we know all about the Rebellion, here’s your target!” what do you think happens to them and Alderaan? Nothing good! At that point, the Empire can justify anything it does to Alderaan as legitimate retribution for their treason. If they keep their cool, on the other hand, the Empire has a much harder case to make, and they’ve got a lot more wiggle room. Even if Bail and Breha seriously thought that Tarkin would destroy the planet, they almost certainly assumed that it would take more time. More negotiating. Not “I’m destroying it on the first half-transparent excuse I can find as soon as I find it!” I betcha they were frantically destroying records on Alderaan, sanitizing information and trying to figure out political strategies, not realizing that none of that mattered because Tarkin came there intending to destroy a major planet just to show he could.

Cloud City, otoh, is small. Nobody cares about it besides the people who live there. Even before Alderaan, if the Empire cared to smite it, nobody would have blinked.

Second, Alderaan was a target of the Empire because of its connection to the Rebellion. They capture Princess Leia, Alderaan becomes an immediate place of interest. The Empire wants to get rid of the Rebellion. Even if Bail gives up every other Rebel cell and base he knows about, the Empire would STILL know that Alderaan had rebels on it! They would still take action! There’s no possible intelligence Bail could give them that would make it worth their while to just … forget about the fact that Alderaan is run by rebels. Alderaan just got caught red-handed; Alderaan needs to be made an example of. (It’s just that Bail probably didn’t believe that the example would be “the complete destruction of the planet.”) If you’re not running a short ticking clock down to destruction, again, the best thing to do is bluff. You can always confess later; you can’t take back the confession.

Cloud City, by contrast, just happens to be in the way. Vader doesn’t care what happens to Cloud City one way or the other; he doesn’t even care about Han, Leia, and Chewie. He just cares about getting his paws on Luke. So Lando actually has a great bargaining position. Vader wants one thing (Luke), which will be marginally easier to get with Lando’s help; Lando wants one thing (the protection of his people), which he depends on Vader’s good graces to secure. He can save his people (and get Han out of the line of fire) by throwing Luke under the bus. And then Vader will go away because, see point one, nobody cares about Cloud city, and Vader only cares about it in ESB because it’s where he happens to catch up to the Rebels who can call Luke for him. Agreeing to spare Cloud City loses him nothing, and gets him an easier setup for his trap. And that’s all Vader (or any Imperial) wants out of Cloud City. Boom! Done!

Third, Bail is a committed Rebel. Lando is a complete outsider. Bail has chosen his allegiance, and it is twofold: to Alderaan, and to the Rebellion (or, as he puts it, “the Alliance to Restore the Republic.”). Even if he completely, totally, and utterly gave up everything he knows and gave the Empire enough information to track down and destroy the entire Rebellion, that probably still wouldn’t be enough to stop the Empire from massive reprisals against Alderaan. It wouldn’t save his planet. Betraying one of his allegiances would not save the other. Lando? Lando has no larger political affiliation. Lando’s allegiance is to Cloud City, full stop. He doesn’t have to worry about betraying his people and his cause; he just has to worry about getting the Empire through there and out of there as quick as possible. By handing over Luke, he is not betraying anyone he has any care for or allegiance to; and as for Han and Chewie (the two he actually cares about), the deal was that they would stay on Cloud City, remember? And even Princess Leia! Lando isn’t trading “all of the Rebellion” for his city; he’s not trading massive tactical information which could cripple the Rebellion for his city; he’s trading ONE REBEL for his city. That’s not a bad trade.

Fourth, let’s assume Bail did cop to everything and turn information and himself over to buy Alderaan’s survival. What happens next? Why, the Empire has a weapon that can destroy entire planets, and the only people with a hope in hell of stopping that thing just got eliminated! In the long run, it’s probably better for the galaxy that Alderaan was wiped out but the Rebellion got the plans and destroyed the Death Star, than Alderaan saved and the Death Star still at large. Because if it wasn’t Alderaan, it would have been some other planet. The whole point of a weapon is to use it. This isn’t the Cold War, with two sides with equivalent weapons; this is one side with an overwhelming force that they can use to devastating effect, if you don’t destroy it first. If the Rebellion can’t destroy the Death Star, the galaxy is doomed forever. Bail knows this. And if he saved Alderaan by giving up the Rebellion, Alderaan would then have to exist in a galaxy ruled by the kind of people who like to destroy planets and can do so at will. That’s a long-term sword hanging right over their head.

Cloud City? What are the consequences of selling out one Rebel to save it? Well, the consequences are pretty dire for that one Rebel. But not that big for the galaxy as a whole, or at least, Lando had no reason to believe they would be. Cloud City will have no long-term consequences, either; neither will Lando.

Fifth, Bail copping to everything would require also throwing Leia under the bus. Her one hope of survival (he probably thinks) is using her threadbare excuse of being on some sort of diplomatic mission that has nothing to do with the Rebellion. Tarkin might hesitate to destroy Alderaan (or at least Bail probably thought he would), but not to torture and kill one politician. If Bail folds, Leia is toast. And he loves his daughter dearly. In the end, I bet he probably would have been willing to sacrifice her to save Alderaan, but not as a first option on a few minutes’ notice.

Lando had never even heard of Luke before Vader showed up. The only people in the whole mess (besides his citizens) he has any connection to are Han and Chewie … and if he throws the dude he’s never heard of before under the bus, he can save the people he actually knows and cares about.

Also, from a Watsonian perspective, there’s no evidence in ANH that Bail had any foreknowledge or ability to negotiate at all.

Vader has everyone informed that everyone on Leia’s ship was killed. No one in the Rebellion knows Leia is his prisoner; everyone thinks she is probably dead. It’s clear when the Falcon gets her to Yavin that people had held out hope, but no one knew for sure.

Alderaan was targeted not because of Bail Organa, but because the Empire was torturing a prisoner that the Rebellion didn’t know they had. This wasn’t a longstanding target that Bail or Breha or anyone could have negotiated around. The only person in position to do anything about it was Leia, and she tried to do so and failed because Tarkin was a complete monster.